Hayley: When I was looking on the Green Island Instagram page, I noticed in your artist bio that you were ‘Originally born in Vienna, [grew] up in Ireland and [have] roots stretching back to Ecuador and Togo’. With such an eclectic background and upbringing, how much do you feel your identity has shaped the work that you do?

Stephan: When I was younger, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. I wasn’t thinking about any kind of career, really. I studied International Business with German, but I’ve always been working in nightclubs. When I was sixteen, I blagged my way into doing promo for a nightclub in Belfast. That was at a place called Thompsons Garage, one of the longest running clubs in Northern Ireland potentially, that’s still going really strong today. From that moment onwards, actually, I started thinking that I’d love to own my own nightclub. Then, in my second year of uni, I moved to Heidelberg in Germany and that’s where I started my own night, my first club night called Unterkum Bildung.

What does that translate to?

I kind of copied the name… My mate Alex ran a night called Underground Education, which was on a Wednesday night I think at Sound Control [in Manchester]. But in German, the name has two meanings. It means the creation of the underground and the education of the underground, which both fit really well! We spent, like, 70€ on posters, then put them everywhere around Heidelberg and Mannheim and sold out our first event. It was really great, people were digging it. After that, the other dude that I did that event with took it on and didn’t really do much with it. I don’t think he really had the passion for it, which is a shame, because I feel like [it could have] grown into something really, really cool.

Then, of course, I had to come back to Manchester and at that time, I was dealing with a lot of psychosis—[the result] of taking a lot of drugs at uni. It wasn’t great and had a really strong knock on effect on my self-esteem. Even today, it’s really difficult for me to put myself at the forefront of a lot of things. When I’m in the mix, I smash it. It’s more so being at the forefront as a spokesperson [that I struggle with], which I’m working on right now. I want to do more radio shows, more panels, and put myself in more situations where I’m taken out of my comfort zone. I really want to push through that stuff. It’s important to get past those weird feelings.

Then I met my ex-partner and through that, I was like ‘Let me try this out as a career.’. I applied for a junior role at Band on the Wall [in which] I did the advancing for every show [in the main venue]—all the external shows and the internal shows—as well as book everyone on the bar stage and also advance those shows. It was really, really tough, but it kind of trained me to be a lot more on it. I think I needed to be thrown in at the deep end. Then my job role was switched over and I was doing a bit more marketing, which worked really well because I was able to focus on my strong points, [one of which is] creating events.

At that time, I’d been running Me Gusta for four or five years. We’re a multi-disciplinary collective that focuses on African, Latin, Asian and global majority music, mixing more organic and traditional sounds with the more electronic, modern interpretations. Then I started running Green Island Festival with George, who’s now one of my very close friends. He messaged me directly, we met for coffee and he asked me if I wanted to get involved. I was like ‘Yeah, 100%.’.

So you didn’t know each other at all beforehand?

No, I’d never met him before. But from that moment onwards… We’re like best friends now. We speak every other day.

With you mentioning confidence earlier, that must have been a real boost. To have a stranger reach out, hoping to work with you, purely on the strength of the work that he knew you were already a part of.

Yeah, for sure. It definitely gave me a kick up the arse where I was like ‘Right, I need to pull my weight. I want to do well’. I think a lot of things just started falling into place after that. Like I said, I’d been dealing with psychosis and some self-esteem issues [as a result of] a lot of partying in the past and not really looking after myself, and suddenly I had a really good outlook on life again. I was pushing through. 

I was working a lot. Like 60, 70 hours for two years straight, which was not healthy. I’d work, work, work, burnout, sleep for like four days, then work, work, work, work, work, burnout… It was happening constantly, but I was just so used to it after a while. I knew when burnout was coming. I’d sleep for a few days, then pick myself up and get back to work. I feel like I needed to go through all that to come out to this side now though.

Is this—now—the best that you’ve felt at work?

Yeah, definitely. I’ve been doing therapy this year and that’s really [helped]. I’m just taking care of myself a lot more and giving myself a lot more time. I’m still super busy all the time, but it’s like there’s less pressure on it now. 

[But] we’ve been doing Green Island for four years now, it’s our fifth birthday next year. People in the community in Hulme really appreciate the festival and we haven’t had any complaints. We’re working with the council really tightly too to make sure that we’re not stepping on anyone’s toes. It’s been a really good year for us as well, we’ve doubled our revenue, which is great.

Before researching for this interview, I had no idea that Green Island was produced in partnership with Manchester Council and the Arts Council. 

We got funding for the first two years, but we didn’t get it last year. Our application just wasn’t strong enough. But I’m very positive that we should be getting funding next year. It just kind of takes the pressure off, and helps the money and cash flow situation. But it’s been really great, as we’ve been getting to know people in the council. We want to try and get the [local] MP down and connect a lot more with the community to see what more we can actually do to have a bigger impact and get more people involved.

So, before we get too deep into what you do today, let’s take it right back to when you were young. Have you always been into music?

I grew up with both my parents. My Mum is Ecuadorian, so Latin American music has always been [present] in my surroundings. Even now, I find a lot of comfort in listening to salsa. I can listen to it for hours and hours. People get bored of it, but I don’t get bored of it. It just reminds me of my youth and [provides] me with some type of comfort. There was also afrobeat—old school afrobeat—a lot of hip hop and pop music as well. I grew up with my Dad, who’s always been really into pop. Then, of course, there’s all the gospel music. Me and my parents used to go to church quite a lot when I was really young, before I decided not to go anymore when I was around 11 and the devil took over me! 

My parents always organised family parties too. Every three or four months, we would have some kind of party or a wedding. We’d go to church on a Saturday, then they’d hire out a room that was connected to the church and play salsa and make loads of food and loads of drinks. I’d be outside playing with my cousins. I’ve always been around those kinds of ‘event’ situations, I guess. My Dad’s still running salsa events in Belfast now. My Mum will make cake and bring a few mixers—he doesn’t really sell any alcohol—and people can bring their own drinks, then they just have loads of people dancing salsa while my Dad is DJing.

Just from the way that you talk about them, they sound like spaces with a really warm and welcoming atmosphere, full of community spirit. Do you think that that’s fed into your events, are you looking to create something similar?

I think so. I think it’s about the way you perceive the world. For me, how I want to feel is how I treat other people. People have different management styles. Some people can be quite strong and firm, whereas I feel like you can almost kill someone with kindness. You can get anything from anyone if you’re super kind and help them understand what the situation is. [I find that’s more effective than] giving someone an earful of negativity, because then maybe they help you but they don’t want to do it again. 

That’s where me and George work quite [well together]. George is very admin heavy, very firm and good with the numbers, whereas I’m a bit better when it comes to making connections with people and being a bit softer in that sense. Soft, but still to the point. When something is off, I don’t mind taking someone to the side and saying ‘That could have been done a bit differently, please be more mindful about it’. That’s my general approach. 

With the creative side of things, I’m thinking about the bigger picture. Like with the programming, it needs to be connected and making sure it’s always 50/50 male and non-male is mega important to me. At Band on the Wall, [our Chief Programming Officer] Santana is such an amazing booker and I’ve learned so much from her. She’s very strong about bringing people from different parts of the world to Band on the Wall and that’s exactly [the mission] I’ve taken on as well. It’s a really important part of programming I think, [packing in] as much diversity as possible. 

“With the creative side of things, I’m thinking about the bigger picture. Like with the programming, it needs to be connected and making sure it’s always 50/50 male and non-male is mega important to me.”

You can tell that’s a huge consideration, with Green Island especially. It really comes through in your lineups. With Band on the Wall though, I’m interested to know how you’re able to find acts with the same energy as those on in the main venue, but at that real seed stage of their career. Where do you find those people?

You have to dig really deep. There’s a promoter called Molly [that we work with who’s] incredible. I think she just goes in and digs and digs and digs. She runs her own event, Elephunk in the Room, but has also taken on some Saturdays throughout the year and as Funk Street!xThe Giant Groove, we’re working together to bring artists from around the North West to Band on the Wall. There are some incredible jazz artists, funk and soul artists, psych artists from these areas that I hadn’t heard much about, but then you listen to them and it’s like ‘Oh, sick!’.

With Band on the Wall, the beautiful thing is that maybe we don’t have the budget that [places like] Blues Kitchen [do], but we try to make everyone feel as comfortable as possible when they play at the venue and they’re treated like any other band that comes through. They’re treated with respect and we make them sound as good as possible. I think that’s the reason why sometimes, even though the fee could be higher, bands are happy to play at Band on the Wall. 

It’s great when you find those really unique bands that you can elevate a little bit, and work with them to get them on the ticket selling ladder. In the end, that’s what it’s about. A band can be amazing but, unfortunately, if they don’t sell any tickets… Or if they’re not releasing music. It’s like, ‘We can put you on, but we can’t really offer you that much money.’ because, in the end, it’s all an ecosystem where everyone helps each other to make [a success of things]. 

Would you ever book a band without hearing any of their music?

Yeah. I’ve done that a couple of times. 

In those cases, what would you look at instead? What would make you take that chance on an act?

Sometimes, if I need to fill a date, if my calendar is a bit slim or in the summer when we don’t have as many touring bands [booked in], there’s just a lot more availability. Summer is one of those times when it’s really good to get new artists and new promoters in to try things out. I would help artists that have never performed before—or maybe not never performed before, but have never made a hard ticket—set up their event and give them information on how to promote. You know, see what we can do to help and push them. Even if I’d just heard the bare minimum, really not much at all, sometimes you have to take the risk and make sure that if they’re good, you can get them back in. If they weren’t as good, you can give them some pointers and hopefully they come back when they’ve developed. 

I’m guessing it can vary massively how much assistance you might need to provide to a newer artist or promoter. How do you tend to gauge the amount of guidance that they’ll need?

You just know from the get go, or you ask the question. ‘How comfortable are you setting up the event?’ [Otherwise,] when you send them the hire contract or the deal and they don’t understand something, maybe you give them a quick call and run them through everything. You can give them pointers and they can work from those.

Given that Band on the Wall occupies such a unique position within the Manchester music scene, I imagine it’s huge for promoters—old or new—to feel that they have the venue’s backing, whether that’s through practical support or simply being able to host their events there. Obviously, you’ve worked there for a while now, but when you first joined the team, were you just excited to get involved or did it come with a certain kind of pressure?

I think there was a bit of both, but I was just really happy to work there. Even though I wasn’t doing it as a career [at that point], I had a feeling that something was going to click. I had this feeling I was ready to do something, whether that was working on Me Gusta and really developing that or working for an amazing venue like Band on the Wall. 

What I’m really grateful for is having been able to work with the rest of the team there. With Laura—we used to work together at Albert Hall and Gorilla back in the day—and then with Santana, who’s class. She’s so good, her deals are class and she’s just on it, doing mad external shows with Cory Wong and Hot 8 Brass Band and stuff. On top of that, there’s the operations and the technical aspects, John and Andy… They’re all just really good at what they do. And even though we might not get paid what other venues might pay their staff, everyone there just wants to smash it. Everyone does it for the love, which in itself gives you a kick. I’m working there two days a week on a part-time basis now and I had a conversation with Santana [as my boss] about what I could do better. She was really good at giving me pointers that I’ve taken on. It’s all very communicative, and Gavin [the CEO] is super sound. He just wants to make it happen. When you have a CEO who is always on it and always in the venue, there on event nights making sure that everything looks good, that just gives you that extra kick that makes you want the venue to flourish.

That sounds like a nice energy to work around.

For sure! I’m still mega happy that I’m there. I don’t have to come to the office at the minute, I can work from home, but it’s nice to be there. To be in the mix and really grasp what’s going on. 

I imagine it’s a job that takes a lot of logistical back and forth over email. Do you ever feel far away from the actual music sometimes, maybe on those days when it feels like you’re lost in an email hole?

You can get like that, but sometimes you just have to look at the bigger picture. And in the bigger picture, you’re working in a music venue, you get to see loads of live music and the perks are fucking incredible. You can go and see a gig anywhere you want really if you just drop someone a nice email. I know what you mean, that sometimes you can feel a bit distant from the actual music itself, but everything goes hand in hand. Like with marketing, I always think you can put such a creative [spin] on how you market a gig. You think about the psyche of the people who would buy tickets—would people buy tickets for that person early or later—when you’re going to put your ads out, what the poster is going to look like, what sort of mailer you’re going to send out… Everything plays its own part, you know. And you know when you’re in an email hole, that, in the end, the outcome is always the same. Music is going to be made. 

And you’re still emailing about music, which is better than emailing about anything else.

Exactly! I used to work for Dyson and to be fair, they make great hoovers, but [working there] was awful. I was in the German market, dealing with people from Bavaria giving me lip because they couldn’t turn on the Dyson that they’d spent 800€ on. It got to a point where I was like ‘I hate this’. 

With every job I’ve had before, I’ve always lost interest, whereas with this one, I haven’t. I’ve grown to love it more and more each year. I can also see my strengths and my weaknesses within that. [For instance,] I hate admin. It’s gross! I think it’s my ADHD. I get it done, but my brain needs to go into admin gear. When I’m in admin gear, I can actually get loads done and it’s actually really tight. But it takes me a while to get to that point, because it’s just so boring!

“With every job I’ve had before, I’ve always lost interest, whereas with this one, I haven’t. I’ve grown to love it more and more each year.”

It must be nice to have a job with those different gears though—with parts that are really social, as well as those elements that are straight up admin. 

Yeah, exactly. I think that that’s the beauty of the role. Like today [is all about admin], I’m going through my calendar, looking through what needs to be sorted for the rest of the year. The summer is always such a difficult thing to book, so you have to think outside the box about how you can make it interesting. Maybe I’ll do another Summer Showcase, because last year’s was actually really cool. [It introduced me to] loads of young promoters and loads of bands I’d never heard of, it was great. There were some really cool acts that came through that we’re going to ask to come back and play again at some point, and see if we can push them [further]. It’s so fun when you have promoters who’ve never done events before, who do bits and they go really well, and they’re really happy and they want to do more. That’s the best outcome for everyone. That’s the way I started with Me Gusta. My mate Jahday was in his last year at uni and he was like ‘Ah mate, I can’t get involved, I’m too busy’ and I said ‘Let’s just do one event’. We did and he was like ‘I’m in, I’m fucking in!’ and now we’ve been doing it for seven years.

I say this to every promoter that I speak to, but I have so much respect for people who put on their own events. Every music fan talks about it at one point or another, but only the bravest actually make it happen! I think the biggest thing that stops me from trying it is the fear that no one would come…

[But] I always say there’s so many people in Manchester. If you get sixty people through the door, you’re winning, you know? If you keep your numbers in check as well… I think you just have to create your own formula, see what works with your audience, then rinse and repeat until that formula is on point.

What was your vision for Me Gusta in the beginning? Was it just something that you wanted to try or something that you thought was missing in Manchester back then? Maybe the kind of event you’d have liked to go to, but that didn’t actually exist yet. 

You hit the nail on the head, that was exactly it. The only event back then that was similar to what we’re doing now was Banana Hill—it was Cervo with SNO, such a great event—but nothing else was happening. No one else was doing African or Latin music, reggaeton… There were some reggaeton nights—and there still are some reggaeton nights—that are just mega cheesy. Great audiences, we love latinos, but when they don’t hear Bad Bunny’s latest hit, they get annoyed. They just want to hear songs that they can sing to. I think it’s good [to offer] something different, where you have a little bit of that, but also stuff like dembow. Everything that’s coming out from the South American or Latinx community.

It must be nice to have built Me Gusta into what you have alongside two friends as well.

Yeah. I think we all have our part at Me Gusta. Johan does videography, so he makes our videos, I’m good at booking and making the deal, and Jahday is good at having an artistic approach and direction. When things need to happen, he’s there. 

Does it scratch a different itch to the work that you do at Band on the Wall?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. [Though] there’s a lot of things that can tie into Band on the Wall, like when we booked Habibi Funk or when Band on the Wall book someone for a club night, I’ll also think ‘OK, how can I get Me Gusta involved?’. Everything ties in somehow.

And, both with Me Gusta and independently, you’re a performer and producer too. Do you feel like that’s a space you’d like to expand in?

Yeah. I think when I have the time to put more energy into production, I’d like to see where I could take that. It’s great and it’s great when you put music out. I’d love to have a little vinyl or something, something that I created. With me, I need to focus on one thing though, just that, so when I have time to sit down and use my production equipment and learn how to use the system… We’ll see what happens, how many more things I can juggle! 

More than anything else, from an outsider’s perspective, you always seem to be busy with DJ work! What sort of things do you think about when putting together a set?

I just think about who my audience is that day. I’ve got like 9000 tracks on my USB—so I’ve already got a lot of music to play with—and then I always add maybe 50 new ones into a playlist [before a set]. I like being prepared for every set I play and don’t like playing the same music over and over again. Also, with Me Gusta, when I’m with Johan and Jahday, I have to be on it, because they’re on it, do you know what I mean? We all want to push each other. Jahday is absolutely smashing it as Obeka, doing really incredible things, and Johan is smashing it with his videography, so we’re all there to push each other and that comes through in our sets.

It’s so important to stay up to date with music too. I listen to music 24/7. I find new music, old music, I create playlists for bars and venues too. The amount of music you can find is incredible. You can just keep digging and digging and digging. 

You work across loads of different venues too—and therefore, loads of different genres and atmospheres—which I guess must keep things interesting and maybe acts as a sort of incentive to keep seeking out fresh music. Do you enjoy that variety?

Definitely. I play at YES every Wednesday, and try to play something different or come in with a different angle each week, just because I know the bar staff are there and have to listen to me every Wednesday. I like going through different areas of my USB and keeping it kind of fresh. 

Then [for instance, this week] on Thursday, I’m playing at Freight Island. That’s going to be all Latin stuff, a bit of salsa, a bit of samba, down that line. Then on Friday, I’m playing at Band on the Wall before [going back] to YES, so two completely different sets. [The first one] will be a bit more Latin-esque, Afrobeat, up to date stuff like Fela Kuti. Stuff that people know and remember, but is also quite leftfield. Then on Saturday, I’m doing a set from 1pm til 7pm at Diecast. [With that one,] it’s like all the people from Greater Manchester come into central Manchester to ‘be at Diecast’, so you have to play to the audience a little bit. Play disco, funk, soul, a bit of house. Keep it nice, friendly, upbeat.

I love listening to NTS and being inspired by music of all genres. My Shazam is always on! Or if my Shazam isn’t on, my Spotify is. I just try to be involved in music all the time.

I think one of the beautiful things about DJing is that you can collect so much music. I’ve always collected things since I was a kid. When I was a kid, I collected all 150 Pokemon cards—and I still have them all! I got to 150 and then the new world came out, Pokemon Gold and Silver. I started collecting those and got maybe three quarters of the way through before I was like ‘Sack this off!’ because I knew there would be new Pokemons after that, and I wasn’t going to collect Pokemon cards for the rest of my life! But I always collected something. It gives my mind something new to think about and work through. Like if I have to do a vinyl only set, I think ‘Oh, where can I get these records from?’. 

Music is just incredible. How it makes you feel is just the best sensation. You can even be really low and listen to something really low, but then it leaves you feeling kind of up, you know?

Totally. In your capacity as a DJ, you’re largely trying to find the right music for the environment you’ve been hired to play in, whereas with Green Island, the environment was something that you could control from the outset, especially as you were so involved in the renovation of the garden centre too. With that in mind, how do you approach trying to balance each different stage?

It starts with thinking about the artists that you have at the different stages. So the Marquee Stage was built for up and coming artists and new talent. You kind of stagger it in a way where it starts a bit slower, and then for maybe the last two sets, you want something really upbeat, where you can get people really sweaty. On the Band Stand, we had Chunky, Fat Out and Ruf Dug curating the stage. That was all really cool, it was such a nice mix of people.

The Selector Stage was really cool this year. We had Cosmic Slop, Apricot Ballroom and Lena C, who was actually a part of Me Gusta when we first started and now she’s smashing it [on her own]. She set up a really cool stage with four guys that performed on My Analogue Journey, so vinyl only. Really cool. Then we had the Street Stage, which is very strongly programmed by George and myself, and then the Main Stage [which is based at NIAMOS] where our headliners this year were Def Mama Def, Afriquoi and David Walters. That’s where you can see really big bands doing incredible things. We’re still working with a super tight budget, but people want to get involved, which is great. 

We then try to combine all these areas, that all have different audiences—who would maybe go to the events [of some artists who’re performing] but maybe wouldn’t go to others—and encourage them to explore. 

Feedback-wise, a few things that I noticed are mentioned a lot in relation to Green Island are that it’s inclusive and relaxed, with that real welcoming, community feel we were talking about earlier. Is that the best kind of praise you could get?

Yeah, I think that’s exactly what we’re trying to create. We have an incredible Marketing Manager, Dan, [who encouraged us to focus on] what we’re trying to achieve with Green Island Festival. He came down and we had two hours curating an idea of what it stands for. My thing is creating a space for people to have a good time and be themselves. People can come down and enjoy themselves as exactly who they are. There’s no judgement, it’s a comfortable and beautiful place where people are helpful and caring, and you can listen to music and explore new sounds. 

“My thing is creating a space for people to have a good time and be themselves. People can come down and enjoy themselves as exactly who they are.“

Have you found that those sorts of spaces are available elsewhere in Manchester more generally?

Yeah. I think there’s plenty. Partisan or Islington Mill, they offer exactly that. I think Band on the Wall offers it too. Spaces where you just feel comfortable and where everyone is nice. The White Hotel usually has an amazing crowd as well. There’s a lot of pockets where those [kinds of atmospheres] are created, where there’s a lot of respect and people can feel comfortable. I think that’s the most important part. 

You want to go to a place where you can feel great and the people there make you feel comfortable—and you want to make other people feel comfortable around you—and everyone is aware that there are boundaries. Not boundaries around getting in, but boundaries of how you behave towards people that you may not know. A culture of respect, I guess.

Do you think that kind of space can exist at scale? Is that something you find yourself considering as Green Island continues to expand?

We saw it at We Out Here festival and Shambala is probably another one. I think an in-between of Shambala and We Out Here would probably be [what we aspire to]. Shambala put a lot of money into production, which we haven’t done yet with Green Island, but that’s something we want to approach. And We Out Here is just amazing. Amazing crowd, everyone is respectful, it’s just lovely. 

I imagine it’s more challenging and more tiring, but also more rewarding when you care so much about the kind of experience people have at your events, beyond just enjoying the music.

Yeah. I’m not a big star sign person, but some may say I’m a very emotional Pisces!

Putting that kind of energy into all the different things you do must be quite challenging in itself. How do you balance it all? Do you block days off to work on different things and try and keep them all quite separate, or do you just tend to do bits and bobs?

I mostly do bits and bobs, but I have a Band on the Wall day and a Green Island day and I try to kind of keep them separate, so I can focus properly on one thing at a time. I really want to try that [time blocking] thing, where you have different hours for doing different things, and during those times, you focus really hard on that specific task. It’s supposed to be really good if you’ve got a lot on. Especially because of how my brain works—because I’m so zippy-zappy—I think I’d get a lot more done if I got into that. I get a lot done now, but if I don’t have a list, I sway off track really quickly. 

It’s really interesting to hear that someone who has so many different things to manage isn’t a total optimisation bro—and that the work still gets done!

It still gets done! But I think with optimisation, I would probably get 20% better. It’s definitely something to get into, I think. 

Given your past experiences, is there anything that you do now which you’d say helps you avoid burning out?

I just get a lot more sleep. Recently, I went through a breakup and was trying to make a lot more time for people and go out… It was really fun, I had a great summer, but I think I just need to take a little bit more time for myself. To actually turn off my phone when I’m in the house and play on my PlayStation or watch TV, not be planning what I’m going to be doing next week or in five weeks time. I think that’s the balance that I need to find.  

When you do go out, is it hard to switch off and just enjoy a gig?

It’s a weird one. If I really like the band—say like Thee Sacred Souls at Band on the Wall recently—I was tuned in. But if there’s a band where I’m maybe not as interested or a band that I wanted to see, but maybe aren’t [giving] exactly what gets me going, sometimes I do think ‘When does this finish?’. I do try to stick around for gigs and stay there for the whole time though. But if I find something really, really good and I get inspired, then I’ll think about a new project or something, yeah. 

If you could go back to the start of your career and offer your younger self some advice, what would it be?

Start as soon as you can. Do something fun, like DJing or running events, bringing people together. It will get you to the point that you’re going to be at in the future anyway quicker. If I’d started Me Gusta when I was 18, I’d have been doing it for 13 years now. [That said,] I had a really good time at uni, so I’d probably just do what I did and enjoy the journey. Of course, you can do everything quicker and I think society pushes you to do that, but it’s also about enjoying the journey and not forcing yourself to do everything at once. 

Also, I’d say that everything will fall into place if you look after yourself. Look after yourself and let people in. You have to make all the mistakes before anything really works anyway, so I guess don’t force it, you know. I didn’t force it and eventually it all kind of fell into place. I think you just need to keep a positive mindset, be kind and make sure that you look after yourself. And do therapy—it fucking works!